Why do we study English like that?
Posted by: kirin on 
Jul 30th, 2010 | 
Filed under: Rambling, Something Weird...
It looks like some Japanese people like to spend summer vacation for study. They take it a good opportunity to learn English. It’s unlike vacation or holiday…though^ ^;
Every time I see these ads, I’m just amazed at Japanese workers who work 9-5 + over time Monday – Friday and study during weekends and holidays, too! At the same time I wonder if that works out, because it’s a lot more effective to practice a foreign language everyday even only 15 minutes than do it intensively at one period of time as suggested in the ads.
English conversation schools like this have been popular for decades. When I was graduating from university, I thought of working for one of these schools as an assistant teacher or something. But I was so bad at job interviews because I was just too honest to reply their questions “properly” at any kind of jobs until I was finally hired by a company that was dying to get someone who can communicate with their employees overseas.
This was the part of job interview at an English conversation school that I still remember today.
Interviewer:
“Let’s say your student wants to have his TOEIC test score increased by 100 pointes in a week. How would you advise him?”
Me:
“From my experience, I’m afraid it’s nearly impossible. I could help as much as possible, but it’s all up to your efforts after all… :p ”
***Most of Japanese companies pay attention to the TOEIC test score to judge the English skills of the person.
I remember other candidates were saying something like this.
“Let’s do our best to make that possible! You are not alone, I can support you! You can do that as long as you have me!” I learned this was what I was supposed to say, and I knew I failed right at the moment. The all 4 or 5 interviewers there apparently looked totally disappointed and unhappy right after I spoke. lol
Anyway, I guess that was the only one English conversation school I thought of working for because anyhow I was not sure if any English schools would be still needed by the society 10-15 years later from that time. There were many schools already then, I imagined there will be small population who come to these schools to improve speaking and listening ability of English by the time I become an experienced teacher. And what happens next will be this. I may have less chances to get jobs at English conversation schools but at the same time I cannot go any other industry because my experience will be limited to teaching English.
I started working for an exporting company instead. Time has passed and I knew my prediction went wrong. In spite of many English conversation schools, private teaching opportunities at reasonable prices and language exchange opportunities found more casually, besides English education at school started to weigh more on speaking and listening compared with our time, Japanese people do not stop commuting to these schools even today. I suspect these schools even try to cheat us so we should not be able to improve our English skills forever. lol (Please don’t get offended if you are the workers for these schools, I’m just joking.)
I wonder what if they write a blog in English. It costs next to nothing. We can write and read on the blogs, while we can listen and speak on Youtube. If we can make English speaking friends online, we could even skype for free.
But I think most of Japanese people are so scared of making mistakes every time I find books like the followings.
We cannot be perfect after all. In addition to that, native English speakers are not the only people who use English for communication. But I guess there are so many factors around us in Japan that threaten us blaming our imperfect knowledge on English. That’s why it’s possible that Japanese people are waiting to be perfect enough to blog in English, and to be perfect they may prefer being a student at those English shcools for years to come.
What do you think? I’m very much curious how you guys, especially native English speakers actually feel against wrong English spoken by non-natives. (Just like me! lol But from my personal experiences, I didn’t have any big troubles so far.) I suppose we can understand each other better unless we finish the conversation with 1 sentence! lol Let me hear your thoughts, opinions or suggestions to the Japanese who are so scared of speaking English for such a long time.
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July 30th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
Hello. I’ve recently discovered your site and it’s my first time commenting. Just wanted to say that I really like what you’re doing here and to keep it up ^^!
And for a comment that actually pertains to this topic, I know I personally would not mind if people learning the language made mistakes. Heck, even some native speakers I know make grammatical and spelling mistakes so it’s really not that big of a deal. It’s all part of the learning process and I know if the situation were to be reversed, I wouldn’t want to feel intimated by natives of whichever language I was trying to learn! Great post and I feel you on the interview dilemma (I have the same problem)!
Cheers!
July 30th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
You know, being a non-native speaker myself, I can pass on to be one easily. I contribute that to when I first came to the States, I lived in a town that there’s only 2 other Chinese families and they raised their kids to speak English. So, I did well. My friends who came here at the same time, but lived in a town with a big Chinese population, their English didn’t fair as well, and now have a hard time getting a job.
I think while there are more people speaking one language vs. another, English is still the most common amongst countries. There is a running joke that the English and the Americans are the only ones that doesn’t speak any other language because they don’t feel a need to, since wherever they go, there’ll bound to be someone who can speak it. I think that is the very premise of why these language schools strive on. You have these pompous people expecting you to know their language in order to interact.
Silly, I know.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
Interesting article. I do the same thing during job interviews. I'm not there to kiss their ass and BS them……I'm just honest! lolol
It doesn't bother me to see if a foreign person can't speak English all that great. It's amongst the top most difficult languages to learn and I have the patience and understanding enough to sit there and listen of what they can say. I'm really good at communicating with people who's English is less than perfect.
Love your blog! Give Pi-Chan lots of hugs and spoiling for me!
July 30th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
I also have the same problem. I'm learning Japanese, and I want to become better at it… but, I am shy and afraid to speak up, such that I end up speaking very short sentences which do not completely convey what I mean. Or I will get too flustered and forget my words >.< I guess that's what you mean in your entry.
But I really think it's all about taking the 1st step to speak up, and not to care too much about what they think. Most people would be patient enough to listen. Now, let's all master the courage to speak up!! ^.^
July 30th, 2010 at 5:24 pm
I'm a native english speaker, and I really don't mind when I hear incorrect English from foreigners. Honestly, I'm more just impressed that they're trying to speak it! I'm learning Chinese, but I'm never brave enough to speak it with native speakers for fear that they will scoff at me. I know how these people feel, but they're much braver than me, so more than anything, I applaud them I guess.
July 30th, 2010 at 8:46 pm
The difference between two non-native speakers speaking English with each other, and a non-native speaker speaking with a native speaker is that the non-native speakers are more likely to make similar mistakes, which creates a kind of "logic of language" between them, when they are using this language which is not the mother tongue of either one of them. When a native speaker and a non-native speaker communicate, they do not share this "logic", and the signals get crossed, as the native speaker identifies the possible meanings of what was said wrong through his logic, and the non-native through his.
Roughly dividing the two groups, it could be said that often the non-native speakers will have very good grammar, and not-so-good vocabulary, and they will use wrong words for things, and the native speakers will know the correct vocabulary for things, but have not-so-good grammar. Of course, this is partially due to the way we learn foreign languages; most people will get more practice in writing than speaking a foreign language, and thus the ability to form grammatically correct sentences will be stressed more than knowing the exact words for things that might not come up very often. On the other hand, native speakers more readily analyse and understand possible meanings of faulty or lacking grammatical structures, because spoken language is so full of those.
July 30th, 2010 at 10:15 pm
Hi Kirin I think your English is fluent. I hope someday I can speak Japanese like you speak and write English. You make very small mistakes that do not affect my ability to understand what you are saying.
For example, "very much curious" does not sound natural. "Very curious" is more natural or just "curious." "very" and "much" mean pretty much the same thing so having both words is unnecessary. Maybe some people talk like that, but it seems odd to me.
Another example is this below:
Instead of "I didn’t have any big troubles so far." I think, "I haven't had any big problems so far." or "I haven't had any problems so far." This sounds more natural. But, these are just small things. I am very impressed at how good you are and how you can wrote about whatever you want and express yourself in another language, so for me, you are very inspiring.
on another note, is it true that Japanese who speak English are looked down upon as if its a bad thing? I think this work "英語使い” expresses that belief. In America, people who can speak multiply languages are thought of as smart and lucky to be able to experience multiple cultures. It takes a lot of work to learn a language and I think the people going to this conversation schools go because they want somebody else to force them to do the work and they probably feel good about whatever small progress they make at the schools. If they study on their own then it might be hard to judge if they are getting better or they might not have the spirit to learn on their own.
July 31st, 2010 at 12:00 am
Personally I don't really care if someone makes mistakes when using English; as long as I can understand what they're trying to say, then I'm fine.
If a person asks me to correct their English, then that's fine; I will do it because they asked me to. But, if someone doesn't ask me to then I'm not really going to pay attention if a mistake is made.
I'm not too sure why people are afraid to make mistakes. You're never going to get better at anything (a sport, a subject, another language, a new job) without making mistakes! So, if you don't make mistakes then you're not going to learn a language. If you don't speak English then you're not going to learn English. (Right? Because when learning your native language… you also made mistakes while in the acquisition process.)
July 31st, 2010 at 12:34 am
Thank you chung, for your first comment over here!! (^0^)
Good to hear an opinion from a native English speaker. "Heck" is a new word I just learned from you. lol
July 31st, 2010 at 12:45 am
I envy native English speakers in a sense that they can earn high salary compared with Japanese teachers who teach English. I'm often surprised at how much they make by the hour in spite of the requirements. (i.e They can work 2 hours x 3 times per week as a 2nd job. But this opening is only for the native English speakers.) When I was looking for a casual part-time job like that, I noticed the requirements set for the Japanese teachers were more severe and payment was not as good as that for the native English teachers.
Anyhow I have no intention to become an assistant English teacher any longer…so it's OK but I wish I were treated well like them at a certain country for the reason that I am a native Japanese speaker. lol Being born as a Japanese, I want to make use of being Japanese somewhere outside Japan. haha! ^ ^
July 31st, 2010 at 12:53 am
Haha! ^ ^ Kissing their ass…right.
You sound so nice. I met some Amaricans in the U.S who totally ignored me because of my poor English. For example I called a movie theater to ask which movie starts what time and etc. but they hung up while I was speaking, with just saying "I don't understand your English!" But I guess blog readers are not that mean so we can feel more easy about blogging in English I guess. :p
I'll post Pi-chan video soon so you can feel her as close as "live".
July 31st, 2010 at 12:55 am
Yes, I think so. By speaking up while making mistakes we can do it better, right?
All the best for your learning Japanese~~! *b(^0^)d*
July 31st, 2010 at 1:02 am
I think we can be generous against mistakes when someone speaks foreign language when we understand how it's like to learn and speak other languages. I totally agree with your saying that you're impressed that they are trying to speak it! Same here. When I encounter someone striving for speaking and understanding Japanese, I feel like encouraging them. I wouldn't mind mistakes, I'd rather try to get what they want to say, and if they want I'd correct their mistakes for their sake.
July 31st, 2010 at 1:19 am
As you point out, it's true in Japan our English education has been stressed towards grammar, spellings, reading, and writing. That's why English conversation schools can make money from us who need to practice listening and speaking.
I sometimes notice the words and phrases I studied are not used in a daily conversation. ^ ^;
July 31st, 2010 at 1:27 am
Thank you very much for pointing out my mistakes!! How lucky I am, I can still learn English while I blog to make friends in the world!
In Japan, people adore those who can speak English well. I wonder how many of my friends ever told me how much they envy me because I speak or understand English. I keep telling them there are many free lessons online and youtube, hence they can start right from home spending 0 yen, and whenever they can, but it's less likely that they do so. They keep saying "I wish I could speak English!" ^ ^;
July 31st, 2010 at 1:31 am
I totally agree with you!!
"when learning your native language…you also made mistakes while in the acquisition process."
I am kind of person who'd want to start to learn another foreign language rather than make my English as close as perfect. ^__^;
July 31st, 2010 at 4:00 am
As an English speaker from England, I'm in two minds about this. I personally have a great deal of respect for people who have learned ANY second language to a conversational degree, but it often seems the English at large are too lazy to learn other languages ("Everyone speaks English anyway, why should I bother?") and too critical of non-native speakers ("Ha ha, his English is funny!") – especially when so many native English speakers can barely muster up a sentence and think that text speak is a perfectly acceptable written communication medium ("lol ur so grate i luv u").
The famed L/R confusion is the source of most amusement with Asian English accents. While my response is usually "Very good, you can laugh at foreigners. Now let's hear YOUR Cantonese / Japanese / Malay / Thai", I did have a brush with some genuine confusion in Kurashiki a couple of years ago when our English-speaking guide declared a building we were passing to be "clam school."
"Clam school?"
"Hai. People come here from all around Japan to study."
"They study… clams?"
"Hai. So desu ne."
"Um… Any other crustaceans, or just… clams?"
"No, just… Oh! CRAM school!"
"Ahhhh!"
July 31st, 2010 at 4:34 am
english is not exactly my first langauge, i used to speak more in mandarin. and my friends who are better in english would correct my grammar.
in singapore almost everyone is bilingual. english + their mother tongue. our english were so bad/weird/strange that a word was coined to describe our english, Singlish (singapore's english).
reading books is a good way to improve grammar & vocabulary especially.
and japanese is difficult & confusing haha, ive only attended one course around a year ago(elementary1) and i am seriously so lazy to even sign up for course 2 & continue learning…ugh i hope i can stop procrastinating hah.
also, i think that japanese are very hardworking. like the whole population, seriously.
July 31st, 2010 at 7:36 am
When I met my first Japanese teacher I thought she was speaking Spainish! lol.. but over time I actually enjoy listening to her speaking more than my friends' cause it's so interesting!
I think everyone has their first and even Native english speakers make mistakes. It's the wanting to learn and correct yourselves that matter, which you are doing a good job at!
July 31st, 2010 at 5:54 pm
When I listen to people learning English speak it, I do not mind if they get things wrong. I always think "They're trying hard to learn the language, I should allow them to make mistakes". That person could easily say "I do not want to learn English anymore" and not bother, but they decided to give it their best shot anyway.
I too am very embarrassed about my language skills
I once joined a site called Lang-8. It allows you to write blogs in the language you're learning, and people who spoke that language as their mother tongue could come and correct it for you. However, when I wrote a Japanese blog and people corrected me, I felt stupid or mildly embarrassed! If I corrected other people's English, I felt like I was being cruel or picky! I really need to get over this feeling so that I can teach and be taught!
July 31st, 2010 at 11:45 pm
I've so much reading to catch up! =P
Anyway, I'm not coming over this winter. =( My daughter is not well behaved (by our standard), and winter coats will make travelling with 2 children difficult. Also, I'll need to spend $$$ on the winter clothes. So I think Summer 2011 is a much better choice! Shall miss Japan terribly!
July 31st, 2010 at 11:48 pm
I'm an English teacher and I'm getting the kids to translate Singlish into English! Haha… Good way to create awareness.
July 31st, 2010 at 11:53 pm
Oh yes… the "L" and "R". I've come across people to laugh about Japanese's inability to clearly articulate them. But the fact is… we can't pronounce their リwell either.
August 1st, 2010 at 1:08 am
Oh, I've a friend who learnt Japanese all by himself, using textbooks and watching Japanese drama! We have great respect for him. I realise I need to read and listen at the same time. I'm not very good at listening, unlike my husband.
August 1st, 2010 at 1:10 am
Haha… you reminded me of my interview at my current school. The vice principal kept asking me why I'm interested in teaching at their school. And I just kept telling them my house if just across the street! Haha… I guess they were looking for something politically correct. Sorry… don't do that.
August 1st, 2010 at 1:12 am
Oh, will I be considered as a native speaker? I don't have blonde hair! Haha…
Would be wonderful if I can work as an English teacher in Japan! Perhaps in an Elementary school. n_n
August 1st, 2010 at 2:10 am
I think it's pretty easy for the Japanese to pronounce Spanish except for the R sound they have. (i.e tierra)
August 1st, 2010 at 2:14 am
One of the most fascinating things about Japanese women is their speech patterns. The way they pronounce English words and the way they raise the tone of their voice at the end of a sentence is almost hypnotic. I have always felt that if you can get your meaning across, it does not matter that you leave out a particle or build your sentence correctly. Of course everyone wants to sound like a native speaker, but that is almost impossible without unlimited time. Practice makes you better, but I know a few Japanese that have lived in America for 25 years and you can still easily tell that they are not natives. I am sure that is why native English speakers are more popular than Japanese teachers. Students are convinced that they will learn better pronunciation from natives. I know that as a student of Japanese, I prefer Japanese teachers. As for the schools promising the impossible, They are just offering the customers what they want. The students will simply think, "Others can do it but I am just not very smart" Good for you for being so honest.
August 1st, 2010 at 2:18 am
I guess I see what you mean. I feel good if someone takes time to correct my mistakes in English but if it's everytime and every single word or sentence, I'd feel tired of learning it. So I guess one by one or little by little will be OK. Toddlers do not speak perfect but adults understand what they want and we can communicate each other. Native speakers can be generous enough to imagine or infer what non-natives mean.
As a native Japanese speaker, I want to be kind enough to try to understand imperfect Japanese spoken by those who are studying Japanese. At least I appreciate their effort.
August 1st, 2010 at 2:24 am
OK~, that's true. From SGP to JPN during winter, I was wondering how you do with winter clothes you have to wear all during your stay in Japan. For the entire family that'll be just too bulky. Summer in Japan is as hot as Singapore. It's over 35c with humidity 60-70%.
Isn't it better for you to explore other season than summer? Like autumn for example, is so good for food, onsen, scenery, and the weather is not hot or cold. You can bring some long sleeves to wear over Tshirts, or you could even buy them at reasonable price at the pleces like Uniqlo or Muji, which is everywhere in Tokyo.
August 1st, 2010 at 2:28 am
I hear many people nowadays study Japanese from anime, manga, J-drama, and etc. That's a nice fun method and I wish I could do the same by watching Spanish anime, manga, or video to practice my 3rd language. (There are not many as we have in Japanese.)
:p hehe, I used to study Spanish and recently I am thinking of learning it again to write proper comments in Spanish. (Some people somehow comment in Spanish here.)
August 1st, 2010 at 2:29 am
LOL I like that!
August 1st, 2010 at 2:30 am
LOL Singlish into English?? LOL LOL LOL Teach me Singlish next time!
August 1st, 2010 at 2:37 am
We have difficulties in distinguishing L and R sounds, just as Cath says due to our リsound in Japanese, which is somewhere inbetween L and R.
I hear Koreans have difficulties pronouncing coffee, and instead they tend to say copy. A Korean guide who spoke Japanese said "Punka" instead of "Bunka" (Bunka = culture) so they seem to struggle with F or B sounds…??
August 1st, 2010 at 2:41 am
Most of the Japanese are hardworker, I agree.
But young people are not as much as people of our parents' age.
I think old Japanese worked so hard that created Japan today but the young do not do the same, I wonder how different Japan will be in the future.
August 1st, 2010 at 2:43 am
Yes I think you are considered as a native English speaker, too!
August 1st, 2010 at 3:38 am
That way of speech sounds fascinating to you, which means kawaii to you…right? ^_^
August 1st, 2010 at 6:45 am
O, I LOVE Japan during autumn! I was able to visit Japan in May and Sept before I became a teacher. But now, I'll have to stick to June and Dec ~ school holidays. Sad… =(
Yes, summer it is! My daughter spent almost 1 1/2 hours finishing her lunch! I wanted to knock my head against the wall!
August 2nd, 2010 at 10:29 pm
Ha, yes it's a tricky thing, language learning. Like you, I believe that 90% of the work has to be done by the person wanting to learn – it doesn't matter what great materials or people you have helping you if you don't make the effort yourself. (Sadly I know this from my own experience, or my Japanese would be better, haha! ;P)
As for hearing non-natives speak; I think most native English speakers who are exposed to non-native speakers in daily life, at work etc don't really think too much about it. I know I don't; I kind of have to turn the English teacher inside of me 'on', because often I would rather that a conversation flows relatively smoothly rather than make pedantic corrections every other word. Maybe that method is more helpful, but it's not so fun when you just want to hang out! ^^;
The only way to get better is to use the language and make those mistakes. That's one of the reasons children are so much better at language learning – they're not afraid of being corrected or saying something wrong (they're used to being told what's right by their parents, after all!). I think we as adults need to try to take that approach. So like you said – blog, write, talk, even if it's not right! Actually, do you know Lang-8? It's a free website where you can blog in the language you're learning and people who are native speakers of that language correct you. Of course it's polite to correct blog posts in your own native language in return. It's been really good I think, although I've been really lazy lately and haven't updated at all! :$ But I'm thinking about writing my blogs there, and then putting the corrected versions up on my 'real' blog after.
August 2nd, 2010 at 11:57 pm
Lisa, thank you for your comment. I think you have great insights from your own experience as an English teacher as well as learner of Japanese.
Your comment made me realize that we didn't care at all to make mistakes when we were kids. It's possible, if we do not fear mistakes, we can achieve things more smoothly.
I'm thinking of exchanging lessons with a Spanish speaker who wants to learn Japanese because I want to study it again. I am more interested in 3rd language than improving my English to the higher level, as I can at least lead a simple life in English spoken countries now.
BTW, good to see Nandeyanen renewal!
August 3rd, 2010 at 12:09 am
Hahaha…you made me laugh. I cannot imagine how hard it is to have work and kids to raise at the same time. You are doing it really well. ^ ^
Ah~, school holidays, right. I suppose teachers cannot easily take days off like company employees do. I'm sure your daughter will have grown to be a good girl by the time you travel.
August 3rd, 2010 at 1:59 pm
Haha, thank you!!! But it will still take some time… I have adopted a new website to host it all, but my coding skills are terrible so it's going quite slowly…. >．<； But I'm hoping we'll be back up and running soon! Also, I suppose I should update you on some news, but I'll email you instead.
August 5th, 2010 at 12:26 am
nono you don't want that im sure !
its bad, like really bad.
August 5th, 2010 at 5:54 am
hehehe….:p….I'll check out how bad it is…just out of curiosity…hehe.
August 6th, 2010 at 4:27 am
i think the reason those schools are still around and so popular is because the way of teaching english IN NORMAL SCHOOL is so bad… also, the only thing anyone cares about is tests… of course nobody will never learn how to really communicate in English if all they focus on is passing a test! same thing with TOEIC. it does not actively reflect anyone's ability to speak english. i was helping one of my japanese friends study for it one time and was SHOCKED at how difficult the questions were! it's all fancy business english! no one really speaks like that except in formal documents. and yet, people focus on getting a good grade on this test, and with studying hard might even succeed, but ask those people to have a 10 minute conversation with a native and they will either freak-out or speak really badly…
August 7th, 2010 at 5:24 am
Thank you for your comment. Sometimes the system doesn't accept long comments, sorry….^ ^;
There are many tactics and strategies to do better at TOEIC test, which however doesn't settle the essential problem we have. It's really misleading us. The more we become enthusiastic about leaning English, the more we are somehow led to the direction to gain better scores at tests, not at daily conversations…
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